Possible changes for the Artists Alley for the 2011 convention

[darkshardsyuki]

Because this has been a big issue with this year with the change from first come, first serve midnight rush to a 2 week window or sign up and lottery, I would like to have any suggestions brought here.

Please note first-come, first-served will never return. If you have an idea on a way to change the lottery and sign up system to make it run even better next year please post it here. This is what the current system is:

Feb. 1 to Feb. 15 sign up

Lottery based on first groups of space type requested and then 2 chances for returning artists to get a spot in their group. No changing to a larger or smaller group to get more chances.

To get two tables, you’ll sign up for one, and have the option to fill out a description box giving the reason that you should have two, from there we will chose the tables that go to them, the applications picked will be places in a separate lottery for the spaces. New artists will not be able to sign up for two, this is because we would like them to start off as half or single tables.

We had a lot of applications that applied with several different kinds of products. To ensure we know what is going to be sold we will be asking that images be provided for every kind of product along with their application.

Contracts go out May 15 and are due back by July 15. You have t be registered by May 15 to get a contract and if you miss either deadline then you lose your spot.


If you have ideas on how to improve this for 2011 then share them here. This is not an argument thread so please stay calm when sharing different views on what could improve things.

[Terra]

IDK if it would work because of line issues (And I know NDK has way more line issues the Starfest) but would it be possible to add more tables? I know StarFest has tables down that back hallway, and around the actually outside of brick wall (which we've had, and not had)? Or in the lobby on the second floor area? I know the con isn't about artist alley, by far but I know like...I had no issues with having enough business, so I feel like the con could support having a lot of artist alley tables. Denver in general is very pro-art and it happily seems to be expanding to the anime area.

Also, what about...I know some people will sell out of their hotel rooms at cons, to...sorta escape the dealers room/artist alley, but what about some way of organizing that with the con? It might be hard, but I think...it'd both help people who do that get exposure, and help the con keep an eye on what people are selling/doing. Maybe getting all the artist on one floor? I know especially for artist who have bigger things, being able to set it up in their own room would be cool. It'd cut down, obviously, on some sales, but for people who don't GET in the AA, it's be better then nothing?

[Greg Hines]

Also, what about...I know some people will sell out of their hotel rooms at cons, to...sorta escape the dealers room/artist alley, but what about some way of organizing that with the con? It might be hard, but I think...it'd both help people who do that get exposure, and help the con keep an eye on what people are selling/doing. Maybe getting all the artist on one floor? I know especially for artist who have bigger things, being able to set it up in their own room would be cool. It'd cut down, obviously, on some sales, but for people who don't GET in the AA, it's be better then nothing?

Our contract with the hotel only permits the Evergreen Ballroom (the dealers room) and the atrium for commercial use. All other areas of the hotel are off-limits as far as commercial activity is concerned.

Besides, we can't specify who gets what sleeping rooms in the hotel...

[Miamai]

Hey all, I've been talking to a lot of people who I know who always go to the artists alley or run booths there.

This was the idea we have come up with that seems to be fair to both sides, those who like first come first serve and those who like the lottery. I propose you have the dead line for getting in your app shorter for one because if I (hypothetically) send in my app and 100 other people do each day for 15 days that's putting me and everyone else up against 1500 people and that's a bit much. ^^' maybe you should go for 4 or 5 days instead

We also thought maybe something like this would appeal to both sides ----->

Half of the tables go to first come first serve and the other half go into a lottery of everybody else who didn't get their app in in time?? this could stop all the fighting.

I've had 18 of my friends say that if they or their friends don't get a table because of this lottery then they're never coming back to NDK and they'll go to Wasabi instead... I'm afraid lots of people feel this way and will do the same. Also people have things they go to aa to buy every year like... fairies in a bottle, or prints done by the guy who draws the beautiful big posters of Naruto and est.

Also every person should only get 1 booth, last year I saw ppl who had gotten 4 booths and were only using 1 and that wasn't fair to many artist.

Most artist I think are also scared that a bunch of ppl who don't really care about getting a booth will apply since it seems less... serious with a lottery? and they think it just sounds fun to run a booth but don't really have much to sell or just want to do stick figure drawings to see if they'll sell (when I say stick figure I mean it literally, not someone with silly art or something) I know a guy who sent in his app already with his friends art (which is really good) as the example but he's really going to try and sell stick figures instead. ^^''' very annoying but he's curious if he'll get in. >.<

anyways thanks for reading

[Terra]

Also every person should only get 1 booth, last year I saw ppl who had gotten 4 booths and were only using 1 and that wasn't fair to many artist.

Like...I don't think EVERYONE should be limited to 1 booth, because I have seen people who legitimately need more space then one booth (Lisa the corset lady, for example, and the Jewelry woman who was next to her) but I think that it should be demonstrated WHY you need to have more then one booth. We use to get two booths at cons, and one year got only one, and realized...we so didn't need two, and it gave someone else a chance to get in. I'm sure everyone could /use/ two (We could space ourselves over about 5), but I think something to demonstrate why you /need/ two would be a good idea, and not just "Space between my print books."

Plus if the reason someone needs two can be manipulated by layout as oppose to two tables being taken (Like...say they need a place to sit and physically do portraits at the con, they could be placed at an end spot where they could go over their table space a bit. Or if they sell clothes, where a clothing rack could be set next to their table, instead of taking up all the space of another table.)

I also....it would probably be a bit more work, but I have seen cons implement a "Stand by" line, and anyone who didn't check in by like...noon Saturday, they'd let a Stand-by person have the empty table. There were a lot of empty tables, and I know some people couldn't do Stand-by (Like, not wanting to prep for what might not happen), but maybe have a list of like 10?

[Greg Hines]

I propose you have the dead line for getting in your app shorter for one because if I (hypothetically) send in my app and 100 other people do each day for 15 days that's putting me and everyone else up against 1500 people and that's a bit much. ^^' maybe you should go for 4 or 5 days instead

We don't have anywhere near that many submissions. We're still under 100 submissions total. The extra time doesn't exponentially increase the number of people applying. It simply makes it more convenient for those that already do.

Half of the tables go to first come first serve and the other half go into a lottery of everybody else who didn't get their app in in time?? this could stop all the fighting.

I'm sorry, but we're not going back to first-come, first-served. We've made that quite clear and that's not going to change, even for a hybrid approach.

I've had 18 of my friends say that if they or their friends don't get a table because of this lottery then they're never coming back to NDK and they'll go to Wasabi instead...

I don't see what we can do about that. Your friends will have the same chance as everyone else. Some of them may get tables, some of them won't. Because we have more people applying than we have tables, we can't give them out to everyone.

I'm afraid lots of people feel this way and will do the same.

At the risk of sounding crass, we're not worried about this. We're doing everything we can to make this process fair and accessible to everyone. So if someone is so upset over not getting a table that they decide not to come to NDK, we're not going to beg for them to come back to us. And we're certainly not going to bend over backward to appease the most temperamental applicants.

Also people have things they go to aa to buy every year like... fairies in a bottle, or prints done by the guy who draws the beautiful big posters of Naruto and est.

This is why the lottery is weighted in favor of returning artists. But we're not going to have the same artists returning every year; that gets really boring for our attendees.

Also every person should only get 1 booth, last year I saw ppl who had gotten 4 booths and were only using 1 and that wasn't fair to many artist.

We've never given anyone four booths.

Most artist I think are also scared that a bunch of ppl who don't really care about getting a booth will apply since it seems less... serious with a lottery?

There's that "serious" word again. When did we ever say that NDK's Artists Alley was only for "serious" artists? Or, for that matter, that people who don't care will be submitting applications?

and they think it just sounds fun to run a booth but don't really have much to sell or just want to do stick figure drawings to see if they'll sell (when I say stick figure I mean it literally, not someone with silly art or something)

I think you'll find this isn't the case. It costs time and money to run an Artists Alley table. We aren't getting lots of people sending in applications just for the heck of it.

I know a guy who sent in his app already with his friends art (which is really good) as the example but he's really going to try and sell stick figures instead. ^^''' very annoying but he's curious if he'll get in. >.<

Artists submitting applications are expected to provide samples of their work that accurately reflect what they'll be selling. If someone misrepresents their work on their application, then we reserve the right to throw them out of Artists Alley. We don't take kindly to people who try to game the system.

[Miamai]

Let me clear a few things up for you Greg that you seem to get offended by easily. When I said some artists don't think it seems as serious with a lottery I wasn't saying there are more serious and less serious 'artists'.

Also you want people to give their 2cents about a way to stop the fighting but you don't really care what people have to say it's either your way or the high way and that's a good way to loose your job.

By the way Greg the people who had 4 booths didn't put in for getting 4 of them they probably had several people send in apps that each asked for a booth or two, then when they got to con they were run by one artist who was selfish.

I might add that doing things half and half is not bending over backwards for people it's satisfying both halves, which is not hard to do if you'll stop being so stubborn.

It sounds like you don't care about NDK growing, as you said you didn't care if people come or not, this is BAD for an anime convention and will lead to a depletion of members and eventually an end to artists alley.

Also what's your hatred for first come first serve and a lottery? you haven't tried it. you have no idea if it'll work or not but you are still dismissing it. Give me ONE good reason why you won't at least try it.

[darkshardsyuki]

Miamai please keep in mind that ALL staff are not paid to do the con, we are all volunteers. As long as someone is unhappy about not getting a spot or how something is done they will yell about it being unfair. We have in fact done first come first serve before, last year Artists Alley filled up within the first half hour. Even if we considered doing half half it wouldn't change the number of applications we receive or the number of people who would complain about not getting a spot, we have only so much space.

The reason we don't want to bring it back or make it half half is because the same artists that apply every year would still apply to get a spot as well as many new ones. The big reason we don't want to use first come first serve is because its stressful for everyone including myself, the way it is now gives artists a little more time to get their stuff in and both myself and my second, and several others more time to look over the applications. There will be several changes on the current system for next year but I will not be posting them until after the tables have been posted for this year.

It's not that we don't care about the con not growing, the con keeps growing regardless, we just do our best to keep things from getting out of control. If your friends feel that because they don't get a table they will never come back to NDK there is nothing we can do to keep them if that is how they feel.

Also if you would please contact or have your friend who entered someone else’s art contact me by pm so I can get the name they applied under and disqualify their application, this is in your friends best interest because if they get in and not one of your friends who really want a table it won’t be fair to them or any other artist.

No one was given four tables last year, and I didn't see anyone manning that many tables, if you’re concerned about it please pm and we will talk about it there so we can straighten things out. It would be easier than having an artist bad mouthed here if it turns out to be a misunderstanding, if it wasn't I will make changes to insure that it doesn't happen again and post them here. Thanks.

[Greg Hines]

Let me clear a few things up for you Greg that you seem to get offended by easily.

Offended? Not at all.

When I said some artists don't think it seems as serious with a lottery I wasn't saying there are more serious and less serious 'artists'.

Scrambling to be the first in line is hardly the epitome of seriousness. It's every bit as much of a contest as chance. The only alternative is to abandon chance altogether, and I can assure you that more people would be upset about that than about changing the mechanics of chance.

Also you want people to give their 2cents about a way to stop the fighting but you don't really care what people have to say it's either your way or the high way and that's a good way to loose your job.

We have abandoned the first-come, first-served method because of the problems it caused. We explained this in the previous thread and we made it very clear that we're not returning to the first-come, first-served method in any fashion. It's the one suggestion that we're not going to pay attention to. All other suggestions are welcome.

By the way Greg the people who had 4 booths didn't put in for getting 4 of them they probably had several people send in apps that each asked for a booth or two, then when they got to con they were run by one artist who was selfish.

Some artists will help run each others' tables from time to time, if that's what you mean. But no one can take over other tables by being selfish.

I might add that doing things half and half is not bending over backwards for people it's satisfying both halves, which is not hard to do if you'll stop being so stubborn.

This has nothing to do with stubbornness and everything to do with the fact that we used the first-come, first-served system for years and it caused us nothing but headaches. We know the benefits and the drawbacks and we've decided that we're not going to return to that system for any reason--especially not a hybrid approach that gives us the worst of both worlds.

It sounds like you don't care about NDK growing, as you said you didn't care if people come or not, this is BAD for an anime convention and will lead to a depletion of members and eventually an end to artists alley.

Growth isn't a concern for us. In fact, we're instituting an attendance cap at NDK specifically to limit growth. (We'll release more info on that soon.) That's not to say that we want to push anyone away from NDK, but if someone leaves because they think they're being treated unfairly when we've done our best to treat everyone fairly, then we're not going to try to stop them from leaving.

Additionally, most artists seem to like the new system (or, at least, have no problem with it). It's only a very vocal, very small minority that's arguing for a return to the way it was. The people who are losing their artificial advantage over other people are upset over losing that advantage and they're speaking up about it. Keep in mind that this doesn't disadvantage anyone; everyone is on the same footing this way.

And the truth is that we know that we'll never make anyone happy. The best we can do is make decisions that we feel are best for the NDK and our attendees. If doing something that greatly improves the experience for most people will upset a few people, then we have to accept that. This is certainly one of those cases.

Also what's your hatred for first come first serve and a lottery? you haven't tried it. you have no idea if it'll work or not but you are still dismissing it. Give me ONE good reason why you won't at least try it.

I've already explained above: we've used the first-come, first-served system and we abandoned it for many very good reasons. I will not reiterate those reasons here. If you want to know what they are, start reading.

If you have any ideas that don't involve the use of the first-come, first-served system, by all means let us know. We'll be happy to listen. But first-come, first-served is not coming back. In any form.

More to the point, neither I nor any other staffer will respond to continued requests to bring back the first-come, first-served system. As I said in the previous thread, this is a point that's not worth our time to argue because it's a decision we've already made (and confirmed at the highest levels of the convention) and arguing about it is a waste of our time. We ask that you please accept this and move on to more productive areas of discussion.

[Miamai]

Not all of my questions got fully answered but I see there's no sense in beating a dead horse. Thank you for all of your info that you two have provided anyways.

Hmm... contracts go out in may, how soon will people know if they've gotten a booth or not? (is it may as well?) sooner ppl know the better, even though that's probably tough. ^^'

I guess there aren't many options about ways to give out booths...  I though maybe an auction  starting at $50 and go up but that would hard to run and not really fair either. Well I guess we'll all see how the lottery goes. good luck.

Thanks again guys. If I think of any other ways I'll let ya know but I don't see many other ways to do it.

[Greg Hines]

Not all of my questions got fully answered but I see there's no sense in beating a dead horse. Thank you for all of your info that you two have provided anyways.

As mentioned earlier, we don't address points about first-come, first-served except to say that we don't address them.

Hmm... contracts go out in may, how soon will people know if they've gotten a booth or not? (is it may as well?) sooner ppl know the better, even though that's probably tough. ^^'

They'll go out shortly after the deadline ends. But please address questions about this year's AA submissions to the thread about this year's convention. This thread is specifically for discussing potential changes for NDK 2011.

I guess there aren't many options about ways to give out booths... 

and

Thanks again guys. If I think of any other ways I'll let ya know but I don't see many other ways to do it.

That's the crux of it. We have more applicants than tables, which means we have to have some way to narrow down the list of applicants to equal the number of tables available. (Which, of course, means that many people won't get tables. Fact of life.)

As we see it, there are two general methods for narrowing down applicants: leave it completely up to chance, or leave chance out of it completely.

We currently choose to leave it completely up to chance. And the most fair way to handle that is to give everyone an equal chance at getting a table. A lottery accomplishes this. (We also choose to weight it in favor of returning artists, but that's a conscious decision on our part, not a side effect of our specific implementation of randomness.)

The alternative is to leave out chance altogether. And to do this, we would have to hand-pick which applicants receive tables. We'd have to judge based on quality of work, aptness for NDK, etc. Which means that no matter how "serious" an artist was, they could only get a table if we thought their work was among the best. This excludes anyone whose artwork doesn't meet whatever standards we set.

There's merit to both methods. The former is better for our artists (because they all have a chance); the latter is better for our attendees (because they only get the best). We choose to go with the former method. We're also open to the latter, but I can guarantee you that there will be a lot more upset artists if we eliminate applicants based on subjective quality.

I though maybe an auction  starting at $50 and go up but that would hard to run and not really fair either.

That would provide an advantage to those with the most money to spend, which is about as unfair as it gets, really.

Well I guess we'll all see how the lottery goes. good luck.

This. Maybe you and your friends will get tables, maybe you won't. But you can be certain that, despite the outcome, you had the same chance as everyone who got a table.

[Terra]

I think a lotto would be utterly unfair as well, but have you guys considered a price increase? It's never fun, ever, but...to be blunt, enough people buy things in the artist alley that it is worth a $75 or $100 table because you'll make that back. It's a worthwhile investment money wise.

(Also, I don't think it happened here, but there was incidents of one artist at cons getting several people to buy tables and spreading themselves out. But I feel like NDK's artist alley is little, and that would be noticed really quickly, as it was happening at place like AX, and really BIG cons where people were spread out. Also, said artist has a very distinct and...not so awesome style, and I've never seen them in our artist alley, but I think that may have been what was being referred to)

[Greg Hines]

I think a lotto would be utterly unfair as well

Care to elaborate? That's quite a claim to just throw out there without any explanation...

have you guys considered a price increase?

To what end? To exclude the people you don't consider "serious" artists?

[Terra]

Not a lotto, an auction. Sorry, wrong word. And for the exact same reason you stated.

NDK has some of the cheapest AA prices around, sans Wasabi, which is a much smaller con. It's in high demand. I am incredibly broke and live off of finical aid, so a price increase would actually SUPER not benefit me, but you have a high demand for a limited product. A not "serious" artist with plenty of money could more easily get in if there was a higher price then a broke "serious" artist. The "starving artist" cliche is around cause we generally are not rolling in dough. AX and Otakon are both over $100 (And have much higher amounts of tables), Las Vegas is $200 (Which is way too much), so on and so forth. This isn't something coming out of nowhere. Money doesn't make you a serious artist, ever. It's more so that people like, say, Super Benri don't get knocked for people who don't bother to show up. If you invest more, you're going to be there, and you'll make it back by Friday night, so it's not like it's ripping anyone off (unless they don't show).

[Osias]

 ^ This post is in violation of the rules and guidelines here
  

“If you have a problem with a moderation decision, please e-mail your concerns to mods@ndkdenver.org. Most moderator decisions may be appealed. Each decision may only be appealed once and only by the affected party. All decisions reached on appeal are final.”

http://ndkdenver.org/forum/index.php/topic,3011.0.html

The reasons nearly every post in this topic and the previous topic are cut down is because they all pertain to arguing over a “first come first serve” policy; and it  has been clearly stated by the staff Several times, and with good reasoning,that NDK will no longer be using the “first come first serve policy”; Or because post pertain to misrepresentation or fraud; or ways to extort or bypass the conventions policies.

Terra; did you ever consider that your continuous arguing is reflecting poorly on you. I am a buyer in the artist ally every year and I have been fallowing this discussion, and you continuing to drag out arguments has caused you to loose my business as a buyer or consumer of artist ally.

[Bamani]

I think the lottery is a good idea mainly because it leaves out the chance of any staff making choices being accused of favoritism.  Choosing applicants based on the criteria Greg described if there wasn't a lottery option would be hard, because everyone has a different idea of what is good art, what is anime/NDK related, or what is most appropriate for an all ages con.  The first come first serve thing didn't always work because not all artists interested in artist alley spend that much time here on the forum.  I know that the last couple of years the app, rules and notifications were posted exclusively on the forum, so those people who don't come here missed out.  Having a nice window of opportunity to at least apply (and a great announcement on the website, thanks Greg!) gives some people the chance they might have missed with the previous way.  It also might allow for some new blood in the artist alley as well - I know that there have been several artists that have had a table in the alley for several years in a row.  I'm not saying that their art is bad in any way, but it would be nice to see some new faces there as well.

I guess I have to agree that the con won't be able to please everyone with how the artist alley is run or being filled.  All I can hope is that the artists are willing to give this new way a chance.  

[darkshardsyuki]

One of the points we are trying to stop from entereing the discussion is anything to do with the first come first serve way of doing things, we wont be going back to it in any form so it's pointless to let it enter the discussion. I'm actually really suprised this thread has had so much posting in it, seeing as the registration for this year hasn't even come to an end, let alone anything more then the basic planning for next year. The only changes we've decided on for next year are minor and will be added later this month, once they are up feel free to come back here and discuss any changes you would like to see in the current system. We welcome discussion but that includes feedback from the staff and we hope that the good ideas that come up will continued to be talked about and worked with, however if something has already been talked to death or shot down we would not like to have it brought back up in the hopes that it will end with different results.

[Terra]

^ This post is in violation of the rules and guidelines here
  http://ndkdenver.org/forum/index.php/topic,3011.0.html

The reasons nearly every post in this topic and the previous topic are cut down is because they all pertain to arguing over a “first come first serve” policy; and it  has been clearly stated by the staff Several times, and with good reasoning,that NDK will no longer be using the “first come first serve policy”; Or because post pertain to misrepresentation or fraud; or ways to extort or bypass the conventions policies.

Terra; did you ever consider that your continuous arguing is reflecting poorly on you. I am a buyer in the artist ally every year and I have been fallowing this discussion, and you continuing to drag out arguments has caused you to loose my business as a buyer or consumer of artist ally.

I have edited my reply, because you are terribly right, that is a far more appropriate place to state it (Although IDK if attitude is the same as decision, but it's more suited there). But none of my replies have been about a first come first serve basis for...some time, and none in this thread, period (like...adding more tables, wait list, the conversation about only having one table per-person/group, a bit that got split into a different thread) Besides the last post, none of my posts have been arguing, period, just suggesting ideas about the artist alley, of all sorts, big and small. There not so much about the lottery vs. first come/first serve period as much as "Hey, have you guys thought of this one?" If you've been following this thread, I'm sure you've seen that that was my first reply about that issue.

[Osias]

Terra I would also like to remind you of this rule

Don't abuse post editing. Posts may only be edited to provide updates or to make minor corrections. Posts may not be edited for the purpose of removing content after the fact.

http://ndkdenver.org/forum/index.php/topic,3011.0.html


I am not trying to attack you, and most of the content you removed did not seem appropriate for this thread; however I would like to point out a few things that might be helpful to this discussion.

In the content that you removed from your post, you seemed very upset at Greg and accused him of cutting down post, and personally attacking you.

As for the cutting down post a posting counter arguments; it has nothing to do with Greg’s' personal feelings. Greg will cut down a post and post a counter argument if the original suggestion cannot conform to NDK policy.

Each business or company in a type of business has its own unique rules and policies. What works for Wasabi con or other conventions may not work for NDK. There are many factors to this such as state laws, federal laws, binding contracts.   
 
IE : you suggested, in this thread, that maybe AA could be expanded into vending from your hotel rooms; and Greg posted a reply stating that the Marriot ( which NDK has a binding contract with) does not permit vending and selling outside of its 2 designated areas ( The dealers room, and atrium). 

Business will also do what is in the best interest of the majority of them customers. Maybe you will suggest an idea that works for you and a few others, but does not necessarily benefit the majority of NDK attendees. If you idea gets rejected it is not because you are being personally attacked, it’s because the business is doing what is best for the business.

Terra; 5/10 or 10/10 or your ideas might get rejected; but it is not because you are being personally attacked. It is because your suggestion does not comply with the best interest of NDK; or can not be fulfilled do to legal issues and binding contracts.

[Terra]

I fully understand that, not all my ideas are good/applicable, some obviously don't work for legit reason I don't have access to the knowledge of (the adding more tables outside the atrium is a perfect example), things like that. I very much have a throw everything out there and see what sticks attitude. I mainly took offence at the way things were posted/worded, particularly:

To what end? To exclude the people you don't consider "serious" artists?

There's...really no way to cut that as not snide, and pretty uncalled for. There was no mention of "serious" artist from me, and it's really not an out there idea or anything. There were plenty of constructive, even in the negative ways to reply (We want to leave that as a last resort, we wanna stay the cheapest around as a drawl and to support artist, etc) without unnecessarily bringing in an argument from another thread, quotations and all. There was nothing constructive about that. You can post counter arguments and disagreements without cutting something down. The rejection of the idea(s) doesn't bother me (And I mainly listed them off to show "Go back to first come/first serve" wasn't the only thing suggested), it's the snarkiness behind it.

If the moderators have the power they can add my text back in, I'm not trying to hide it (And would add it back in if I still had it myself. If anyone wants if I can probably recreate it in PM, but it was a lot of teal;deer that did take the thread off topic) Like you said, it was an inappropriate reply for this thread. Which this is also really starting to get into as well.