Costume Contest Feedback for 2011

[Patient_Zero]

Thanks for getting back to me Katie. Let me apologies for my comment about your words coming across as insincere, even in the aftermath of the convention I have to admit I was still more than a little heated about being turned away.  Others have suggested that the cosplay be open to everyone and anything? That is cool but even I understand that it would only result in people complaining as they had in the past. I might throw in the idea of adding categories.  Maybe a “Japanese” category and at least an “everyone else fend for yourself” category. It seems taboo from reading through the other threads on this forum to compare NDK to any other convention but surely some applicable ideas can be garnered from the things others are doing that work. There are other themed conventions that go above and beyond the idea of letting everyone play, starfest has several categories:  Science Fiction, Fantasy, Literary, Anime, and Horror to name a few.

I am really glad you liked my cosplay and the fact that you remembered who I was and so much detail about the costume is freaking awesome. So, thank you. Glad to hear the few that got through were mistakes. I really like NDK for the people: staff, congers, and vendors. I like Anime a lot as well but I choose to cosplay as an American character, a two year build or two weeks, it is passion and that is what cosplaying is about. I think everyone who cosplays just wants that 60 seconds to say, “hey, look what I made.” I know it sounds egotistical, like cosplayers are digging for complements… well we are.

I hope there is some serious inhouse discussion about opening up the cosplay competition in some fashion. I would lean against making the acceptance of non-Japanese cosplays based on whether or not NDK has enough Japanese cosplays register. No one wants to be the kid who is picked last just so the teams are even.

[shanihime]

Katie,
If you are looking for a way to include people who want to show off their mad costuming skills, but who do not quite fit the categories for NDK's competition maybe you could try a half-time fashion show (for lack of a better term).  I know ALW is small, but it is something they have offered for years and I know a lot of people who really enjoy it.  And I know you guys always plan something to keep the audience entertained while the votes are tallied, but this might be something NDK is able to add.  It doesn't have to be a judged event.  It's just a chance to show off.  Just a thought. 

[Rozen Middy]

Katie,
If you are looking for a way to include people who want to show off their mad costuming skills, but who do not quite fit the categories for NDK's competition maybe you could try a half-time fashion show (for lack of a better term).  I know ALW is small, but it is something they have offered for years and I know a lot of people who really enjoy it.  And I know you guys always plan something to keep the audience entertained while the votes are tallied, but this might be something NDK is able to add.  It doesn't have to be a judged event.  It's just a chance to show off.  Just a thought. 

I'm personally very much against this. I feel that if a person puts in enough effort to want to go onstage, they deserve the chance to be judged based on what they've done. Especially since you know everyone up there puts time, energy, and love into their costume, since you need to in order to enter the NDK contest. And if it's in the middle of the contest, it only adds to the audience confusion, since you forget the people you actually can vote on in exchange for remembering costumes you can't vote on. And where do you plan on holding all the non-competitors? Green room is crowded enough as it is, that's why the cap exists in the contest.
Also, a fashion show would only make the contest take longer, something that does not need to happen. You'd also need to limit how many people can enter it, and how long they can be up there. And what they can wear, or are you going to let store-bought costumes in as well, at which point, why bother since there's no point in simply showing off a costume if you didn't make it. It's more work for the costume contest people, I would imagine.
The only convention I've ever seen do a "fashion show" is ALW, and I personally think it's so they can pretend they're fair when really they aren't. One group that participated in it last year took so much effort building their J-rock costumes only to be told it didn't meet the criteria of the contest, and our Heavy Rain group built an entire interactive skit only to be told the same. Of course, that's just my opinion, but I personally hate the fashion show idea.

[Patient_Zero]

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[Patient_Zero]

And if it's in the middle of the contest, it only adds to the audience confusion, since you forget the people you actually can vote on in exchange for remembering costumes you can't vote on.

I agree this would just be confusing and as i touched on earlier it would sort of be a slap in the face to those who are able to walk in a fashion show but not allowed to compete.

Katie,
If you are looking for a way to include people who want to show off their mad costuming skills, but who do not quite fit the categories for NDK's competition...

See that is the issue there aren’t categories there is one category. Skill/difficulty doesn’t a category make.

[shanihime]

I apologize for offending you both (and anyone else) with the idea.  To clarify: I would ask the audience to finish voting, the same for the judges, hand in their votes and instead of a slide show of past cons fill the extra time with the fashion show.  This is at least an opportunity to still get on stage and be recognized for your amazing costume (whatever that may be - store bought, sci-fi, whatever).  I know everyone who creates their own costume works incredibly hard on it.  The problem  Rozen Middy pointed out about not having enough greenroom space and the contest already being so long would both only be exasperated by adding more categories.  If you can use this as a reason why the fashion show idea is a bad idea (which it may be), you should understand why it is equally bad for adding additional categories to the main competition.  Also I understand being unable to enter a costume because it doesn't fall neatly enough into the parameters of a contest, I have had this happen to me, but that doesn't mean that an anime convention should have to open up their contest to allow any type of costume to be represented.  I think that if you want to be in the judged part of the competition, you should plan accordingly, just like everyone else.  Just my two cents.

[Rozen Middy]

On a side note, in reference to your comment about "planning accordingly" for the criteria: the J-rock group was told they weren't cosplayers if they did original versions, but couldn't do official versions as it required them to break the rules already in place, as I understood them, and the skit rule about being asian-origin wasn't listed until you were actually at the submission page (unless you count the roundabout way they sort of included it in the costume portion, but that was just a mess to begin with >.<). Now on to the actual discussion

The problem with it happening during judging is that that's the time where people get up and walk off. I know I wonder out during that time, and there is no denying that people flat out leave before the winners are announced. I personally feel that it'd be rude to put people onstage to show off their costume at the time when it's known that people leave, but if the participants are cool with that, whatever.
And as far as I've understood, adding a different category to justify non-asian entrees wouldn't be an addition of slots open in the contest. Same number of competitors, one more category. They already added one new one this year, and the amount of entrants didn't increase. That's how I've been meaning it, at any rate. Meanwhile, a fashion show would necessitate more space for participants, since there's the same number of competitors, and then some extras.

For the record, I'm not offended, and Patient_Zero doesn't sound like it either. I just personally very much hate the idea. If everyone else likes it though, I'm not gonna stand in their way.

[SachielZERO]

I agree this would just be confusing and as i touched on earlier it would sort of be a slap in the face to those who are able to walk in a fashion show but not allowed to compete.See that is the issue there aren’t categories there is one category. Skill/difficulty doesn’t a category make.

I think the difficulty to make the costume and the skill with which it is done is taken into account in every category except audience favorite. I can't remember any simple, easy-to-make costumes ever winning anything.

[Katie]

There are other themed conventions that go above and beyond the idea of letting everyone play, starfest has several categories:  Science Fiction, Fantasy, Literary, Anime, and Horror to name a few.

I hope there is some serious inhouse discussion about opening up the cosplay competition in some fashion. I would lean against making the acceptance of non-Japanese cosplays based on whether or not NDK has enough Japanese cosplays register. No one wants to be the kid who is picked last just so the teams are even.

Its not that its taboo to compare the other conventions to NDK its just that the compairison isn't a very good one. Most of the other conventions in Colorado are for profit conventions, so they don't have anything that has to be promoted anymore than anything else. Last time I was at any of the Starfest there weren't a ton of contestants so there was no need to make any sort of cuts and even if they needed to cut it off there don't have to promote one thing over another so that's why they can have all those cateogies. Milehicon while a not for profit organization also has a very small contest so there is a)no need to cap and b)a litarary con which mean manga would fall under that perview so (in my opinion) would be allowable.

NDK is specifically a non-profit organization. That means its in the by-laws to promote Japanese culture, not American culture. In which case it only makes sense that if we have a limited amount of space that the space would be reserved for premoting Japanese things be it costumes, or AMV's or Videos shown, ect. That's why you'll never see My Little Pony or Avatar the last Airbender or any other American in origin show in the AMV's or video rooms. Because its a limited amount of space and that space has to be reserved for what the convention is all about, Japanese animation and culture.

So really the only reason we would go back and allow non-Japanese/Asian in origin costumes in would be if there is space for it. Right now it looks like there might be, but again I don't know if its an odd year or what.

To clarify what was added this year was not really another category but an award. All the contestants were still under whatever skill category they entered some were just eligible, because of what costume they entered, to win another award (its also not sponsered by the Costume Contest staff but another staff member as are all of our specialty awards). Anyone next year we allow to enter would still be under the skill categories and we wouldn't actually add another award unless someone wanted to sponser it and there were costumes eligible for the award in the contest.

While the fashion show is a neat idea it would be rather difficult to orchestrate with a bigger con. Our halftime is at least 1 hour long (which I always use all of that time to prepare awards and certificates) we'd have to have about 60 or more people who'd go on for 1 minute each to fill that amount of time, then theres the problem of where to put them while waiting to go up. We'd probably have to have an extra signin team to deal with that while everyone else is moving to the stage. Otherwise they'd be sitting around forever waiting to go onstage and they'd miss the costume contest. While I do like the idea and its cool that they can get more people on stage that way I just don't think its feasible for us to do.

Please keep the feedback coming! I know we can't make everyone happy or try every idea but we do try our best to be fair and make improvements so its a great contest for you guys.

[starstreaker]

Another thing to consider would be the Hall Cosplay Contest that Nekcon does.

Specifically:

"...Therefore we give a special Award to those truly unique and amazing costumes wandering the halls that may never see the ... main stage of the competition. Recipients of the Hall Costume Award receive a special ... blue ribbon that they can proudly display, and are given the chance to show off those costumes during the [contest].

No sign-up is necessary.  Just walk around in your costume and the team will find you!  If you’d rather watch the [contest] than take a bow on stage that’s fine as your ribbons get you special advanced seating for the show."


There is no need for anyone to enter, and the roaming judges can give a ribbon, or some other award, to those they think deserve it. Based on previous discussions, giving the winners a chance to take the stage during the Cosplay Contest is out, but priority seating for it is a way to go.

[Katie]

Another thing to consider would be the Hall Cosplay Contest that Nekcon does.

Specifically:

"...Therefore we give a special Award to those truly unique and amazing costumes wandering the halls that may never see the ... main stage of the competition. Recipients of the Hall Costume Award receive a special ... blue ribbon that they can proudly display, and are given the chance to show off those costumes during the [contest].

No sign-up is necessary.  Just walk around in your costume and the team will find you!  If you’d rather watch the [contest] than take a bow on stage that’s fine as your ribbons get you special advanced seating for the show."


There is no need for anyone to enter, and the roaming judges can give a ribbon, or some other award, to those they think deserve it. Based on previous discussions, giving the winners a chance to take the stage during the Cosplay Contest is out, but priority seating for it is a way to go.

<3 I like this idea and we may be able to incorperate that into the costume contest halftime by having Mark call them up onstage (assuming they decide to go to it) for pictures and such. I'll have to think about logistics more and who would be judges, ect. Thanks for the suggestion!!

[Ryūsuke]

That means its in the by-laws to promote Japanese culture, not American culture. In which case it only makes sense that if we have a limited amount of space that the space would be reserved for premoting Japanese things be it costumes, or AMV's or Videos shown, ect.

I totally understand why my little pony isnt allowed in the AMV's they are called ANIME Music Videos. But i have to agree with Patient_Zero to some extent. To me, it is by cosplaying that we are supporting the culture that NDK promotes. Cosplay is a performance art, these arent off the shelf Halloween costumes that people are buying, they are making/building these, that is what cosplay is and in truth it shouldn't be what you cosplay as but how good you are at cosplaying

[The Ronin]

I totally understand why my little pony isnt allowed in the AMV's they are called ANIME Music Videos. But i have to agree with Patient_Zero to some extent. To me, it is by cosplaying that we are supporting the culture that NDK promotes. Cosplay is a performance art, these arent off the shelf Halloween costumes that people are buying, they are making/building these, that is what cosplay is and in truth it shouldn't be what you cosplay as but how good you are at cosplaying

The portion of Katie's post that you quoted pretty much rebutts this entire statement. While the Japanese brought cosplay to a new level, it's not specifically a Japanese activity. Cultures across the world have done various forms of cosplay throughout time. While cosplay from other cultures and mediums aren't discouraged at NDK, the goal of NDK is to promote Japanese culture specifically. That's why ONLY Japanese (and related Asian) costumes are allowed in the Cosplay Contest. If you want a more open costume contest, Starfest is a great local platform.

[MandMProductions]

This was my first time going to a convention and have to say I had a blast!

...Now several years ago (before the rule) we had people entering as comic book characters and taking the top awards (this wasn’t a one time thing but happened multiple times). And while it was a very cool costume it had very small if no ties to Japan and there were many complaints from cosplayers, audience members and special guests alike. So since the contest was so popular that we had to turn people away, because of the complaints we were getting, the convention was for promoting Japanese animation and the culture and there were several other conventions in the area (Starfest, Milehicon, and Opus for a while) that catered more toward those other costumes it was decided that we should limit NDK’s contest to characters of Japanese origin. The other Asian media bit was added on a little later.

I would like to weigh in on this issue... proponents of Jap-only cosplay complained because non-Jap cosplay were winning? So they were whining because they were losing. I dont cosplay but as a machinist I have helped several people with cosplays, mostly props/weapons. You don't like losing? Then man up and cosplay better! Quit whining. So some try where others succeed and the answer is to weed out the competition? Seems like a shallow victory. You want to exclude people because they win? ( I know you listed other reasons but the masses whining shouldn't have been the reason or catalyst for rationalizing the change) While we are at it lets say that only metal bands can compete in the "Best band in Denver" competition... sure it is hosted by KBPI a heavy metal/hard rock station but they still let any band try, as is, by limiting the field NDK doesn't even let cosplayers, especially the Japanese cosplays really test their metal.

I really did enjoy my first convention and might have to give the cosplay thing a try... can't wait till next year.

[Rozen Middy]

"cosplayer, audience members, and special guests". So, not just the losers. While I understand your point, MandM, I think you missed that. I know if I went to an anime convention and the majority of the awards went to non-asian cosplays, I'd be a little annoyed too, because that's not what I came to see. I'm not saying don't cosplay non-asian cosplay there, but if anything has to be cut from the contest, that's the logical choice.
And I'm sorry, but I don't like your "man up and cosplay better" comment. Do you realize what you've implied? Do you realize what your entire section there implies? It implies that the Japanese cosplayers weren't good. You do realize that there is such a thing as judge's bias? I don't mean to tread on toes here, but it does exist. And in situations like the judge's awards, it's all about bias. There are amazing cosplays that lose to s**t, just because the thing that won was more popular. When you have enough entrants that you feel the need to limit it, the logical choice is to limit the contest to just what the host is about (the convention, the radio station, whatever). I realize you don't agree with me on this, but I figured I should just let you know exactly what you just said. You basically just said that the non-asian cosplays are better, and that removing them limits the awesomeness that the asian cosplayers can reach, since they don't have anything as impressive to beat. I fail to see how winning against any of the competitors at NDK makes it a shallow victory, since there are a lot of amazing cosplayers in every category.
At any rate, since NDK is made for the fans as a non-profit event, it'd be really dumb to just ignore their complaints.

[Katie]

You seemed to have missed these parts of my post.

there were many complaints from cosplayers, audience members and special guests alike. So since the contest was so popular that we had to turn people away, because of the complaints we were getting, the convention was for promoting Japanese animation and the culture and there were several other conventions in the area (Starfest, Milehicon, and Opus for a while) that catered more toward those other costumes it was decided that we should limit NDK’s contest to characters of Japanese origin.

The complaints were not just from cosplayers, nor was it the only reason for the change.

KBPI is another for profit organization, while NDK is a non-profit. KBPI doesn't have a mandate to promote heavy metal in everything they do. NDK does have to promote Japanese animation and culture over other things (that is what the con is for).

I'm guessing you haven't seen the costume contest. If you had you would know that even though we haven't allowed non-Japanese cosplays for a while, the quality of costumes in the contest is nothing short of amazing. There are so many more great costumes then awards we can give out. Winning at NDK is hardly an easy or shallow victory.

[MandMProductions]

Woah!

Do you realize what you've implied?

Please excuse the semantics but actually I implied nothing of the sort! You may have inferred such sentiments. As I am to understand it was several years running that non-Jap cosplays were wining, sure a few of those may have been judge’s bias but sheer probability would suggest that some of them may have been legitimately better.

You also inferred that I meant non-Asian cosplays are better. Never said that.  I mealy reiterated what The Area head mentioned, that Non-Asian cosplay were winging. Winning usually indicates “better”. Nor did I say, “removing them (non-Aisan cosplays) limits the awesomeness that the asian cosplayers can reach, since they don’t have anything impressive to beat.” The cosplays were freaking awesome and can as with any costuming get bigger and better.

If you have a group winning (biased or legit) you don’t ban them and as a result tilt the field in favor of those who haven’t been winning. (Yes there were other reasons for the rule change but just focusing on the complaint reason) You step up you game and do it better, you become more awesome and reach.

Hold up….

You seemed to have missed these parts of my post.
The complaints were not just from cosplayers, nor was it the only reason for the change.

I didn’t miss those points from your post. I know that complaints weren’t just from cosplayers which is why I said “proponents of Jap-only cosplay.” I figured that included all the people who you listed

I'm guessing you haven't seen the costume contest. If you had you would know that even though we haven't allowed non-Japanese cosplays for a while, the quality of costumes in the contest is nothing short of amazing. There are so many more great costumes then awards we can give out. Winning at NDK is hardly an easy or shallow victory.

I did make it to the show and the costumes were awesome. You are right, wining is by no means easy but I will hold to my hollow/shallow victory statement. If you weed out the competitors because any one group is wining (which was one of the reasons) and if the very people that aren’t being allowed to compete were the ones cleaning up year after year as you mentioned, how can that be seen as anything other than watering down the competition? All reasons aside, there is no other way, logically to look at the implications of limiting a competition.

[Katie]

Hold up….I didn’t miss those points from your post. I know that complaints weren’t just from cosplayers which is why I said “proponents of Jap-only cosplay.” I figured that included all the people who you listed

Forgive me, when you started talking about them whining because they were losing and to man up,  it seemed like you only picked out one of the groups and weren't even addressing the other two.

I did make it to the show and the costumes were awesome. You are right, wining is by no means easy but I will hold to my hollow/shallow victory statement. If you weed out the competitors because any one group is wining (which was one of the reasons) and if the very people that aren’t being allowed to compete were the ones cleaning up year after year as you mentioned, how can that be seen as anything other than watering down the competition? All reasons aside, there is no other way, logically to look at the implications of limiting a competition.

To add some clarification, the people weren't kicked out of the contest or banned, the type of costume was restricted, the person refered to has entered the NDK costume contest several times after the rule was instated. So there was no watering down of the contest, they still showed up and participated.

[Mahou Shoujo Michi]

One "problem" that I can see is that as time goes on the line between what's Japan in origin and what's American in origin gets increasingly ( at least in my opinion) blurred.  NDK is a convention for Anime and Japanese culture correct?  Therefore the cosplay contest is limited to things with a Japanese origin.

But there are several things with a WESTERN origin that are in Japan or have Japanese remakes.   Recently there have been several Marvel characters redone by anime studios.  Iron Man, Wolverine, X-Men.. probably others.  There's the "Animatrix" (which is more of a joint project), Power Puff girls have their own Japan remake.. Heck even classical stories and fairytales have anime versions.  I've seen anime versions of Swan Lake, Anne of Green Gables and The Snow Queen.  (All beautifully done as well. )  ... O_o; I'm fairly sure there's a manga.. BIBLE as well. 

How are these handled? They have manga and anime versions yet ultimately have Western origins.  Well, one could argue that the character designs are different.  After all the anime version of Power Puff Girls looks TONS different than the original.  But can you keep up with all the designs?  Can one not cosplay Iron Man, unless they say they're cosplaying Iron Man unless they say they're cosplaying the version from Marvel Anime?  How will the staff know?  I mean after awhile.. I imagine it would get hard to keep up with all the designs and alterations...
Staff: What's your costume?
Cosplayer: Odette from Swan Lake!
Staff: The ballet?  I'm sorry but only costumes of a Japanese origin are allowed.
Cosplayer: This IS from Japan! There was a ridiculously rare 1981 anime film of Swan Lake! I'm cosplaying that!


So in short, how are situations where something ultimately has a Western origin, but just so happens to have an anime version handled?

[Katie]

They're all handeled as Western in origin because you're right, trying to keep track of all of that would be a nightmare, even for a team of people.