Artist Alley 2010 dates, process, and FAQs

[Terra]

I...see the logic in this, but I have to ask, how is first come/first serve not fair? I know...several years ago there were issues with unfairness because everyone was not given an equal chance to know the deadlines, access the artist alley registration, etc. But I feel like this unneedfully complicates something that worked fine (And does work fine for conventions all over the place).

As long as people weren't getting booted if they got in at the right time, with all the information, and everyone across the board was given fair access to all the information/deadlines, I guess I'm just not seeing how the old system was unfair? I don't think people not having their stuff together and complaining about that after the fact makes a system unfair. This seems to be a system that penalizes people who are on the ball and devoted. It does keep everything random, but I don't think...having an edge because you are on top of things and paying attention is a bad thing, and it's an edge everyone can fairly have.

Good luck to everyone, and I'm hoping this works out well. It does certainly get rid of the deadline stress. XD

[Amaya-Murahashi]

The change was actually needed from the old one. They literally got flooded out last year and it didn't matter if you sent at midnight  very much. I sent at the right time and there were so many emails mine got over looked, and I had to check in with them to see if I made the list. So I think that's more why they did it, not so much as it being unfair.

[Greg Hines]

I...see the logic in this, but I have to ask, how is first come/first serve not fair?

Because it penalizes the people who don't check our forum or web site on a regular basis. We don't consider checking the website or forum frequently to be a prerequisite for having an opportunity to participate at NDK. We only expect people to check in periodically if they're interested in things like Artists Alley tables.

I know...several years ago there were issues with unfairness because everyone was not given an equal chance to know the deadlines, access the artist alley registration, etc.

I think you just answered your own question. The first-come, first-served model doesn't give everyone an equal chance to participate. It rewards forum regulars at the expense of everyone else. And though we do value our forum regulars, that should have no bearing on the likelihood of getting an Artists Alley table.

But I feel like this unneedfully complicates something that worked fine (And does work fine for conventions all over the place).

How so? As far as we're concerned, this simplifies things. Now you just have to go to our website at any point during the two-week sign-up period and fill out a simple form, then wait to be notified as to whether you got a table. I think that's generally less complex than having to fill out a form in advance then having to e-mail the form at a specific time on a specific day.

As long as people weren't getting booted if they got in at the right time, with all the information, and everyone across the board was given fair access to all the information/deadlines, I guess I'm just not seeing how the old system was unfair?

The key there is "at the right time." All of our tables were reserved within a few minutes of midnight. And within an hour, the waiting list had filled to the point where you stood no chance whatsoever of getting a table if you submitted an application any later.

So how was this unfair? There are many reasons that someone might not be available to submit an e-mail at a specific time of day--especially at midnight--and many times they're not in control as to whether they're available. Would you feel the same way about the midnight rush if your internet connection died an hour before and you couldn't submit your application on time?

I don't think people not having their stuff together and complaining about that after the fact makes a system unfair.

We didn't do this for the people who complained that they didn't get a table. We did this because we hated the midnight rush and decided to get rid of it once and for all.

This seems to be a system that penalizes people who are on the ball and devoted.

It only penalizes such people in that it removes the significant advantage they once had. Now they have the same shot as anyone else, and that's the way we prefer it. (We don't expect everyone to agree.)

It does keep everything random, but I don't think...having an edge because you are on top of things and paying attention is a bad thing, and it's an edge everyone can fairly have.

That's the thing: we don't want people to have an edge...

It does certainly get rid of the deadline stress. XD

Bingo.

[Nogardous]

Well put Greg... Yeah I heard the midnight deadline was horrific

[darkshardsyuki]

New information has been added to the second post, please read. This 18+ policy is to help keep the convention family friendly and PG-13, thanks.

[motor]

This is my thought after participating last year AN, which half of the spaces were distribute as lottery, this is my thought and what a lot of people have said about it.

Because it penalizes the people who don't check our forum or web site on a regular basis. We don't consider checking the website or forum frequently to be a prerequisite for having an opportunity to participate at NDK. We only expect people to check in periodically if they're interested in things like Artists Alley tables.

For people that aren't regular forum goers or don't know that important information is often buried in the forum, I also agree that it's a penalize, however, for people that don't really care about NDK AA so much to the point that they don't even want to check the website's news section regularly, which doesn't even takes them that much time to do??? I am not sure if they really deserve the same opportunity as everybody else who, at least, check the NDK's front page news section regularly.
Since NDK isn't until September, using NDK AA's this year's logic, I think the registration time should be kept open as long as possible, possibly for 3 months, after all, the registration frame is only 15 days and people who are on vacation during that period, or people who don't check the website/forum monthly are still being "penzalized"

I think you just answered your own question. The first-come, first-served model doesn't give everyone an equal chance to participate. It rewards forum regulars at the expense of everyone else. And though we do value our forum regulars, that should have no bearing on the likelihood of getting an Artists Alley table.

I personally don't see why not, provided that information about registration can be updated on the front page at least 2 weeks before registration. I think it isn't "first-come first served" being the problem, more like information wasn't provided at the right place.
 

So how was this unfair? There are many reasons that someone might not be available to submit an e-mail at a specific time of day--especially at midnight--and many times they're not in control as to whether they're available. Would you feel the same way about the midnight rush if your internet connection died an hour before and you couldn't submit your application on time?

In that case is it possible to not set the registration time at midnight?
And I am able to say this, if an artist is serious about this, he does what he can to register, for example asking couple of friends to do it for them if they can not make it on that night.
If my internet died, I would still feel that it's fair and I would only blame my luck on it. I can say this because something like this has happened to me before, not being available the day registration open, and internet having problems during that moment.
 

It only penalizes such people in that it removes the significant advantage they once had. Now they have the same shot as anyone else, and that's the way we prefer it. (We don't expect everyone to agree.)

I think this is an advantage that devote and serious people SHOULD get.
Most comments, after last year AN AA lottery, were that people don't mind entering into the lottery as long as it's with people who as serious that at least they do what they can to be there for that day to enter the lottery, knowing they are competing with people who don't even bother checking the website once in a while makes it unfair.

I think lottery does work, if the time frame is actually shorter, say, 1 day. And for people who don't even bother checking the website once in a while, they have only themselves to blame for not getting the table.
When it's first come first served, or lottery time frame being only 1 day, I know that if I lost, I lost to serious people. Now when the lottery time frame being so long, if I lost, I will most likely be losing to some lazy people who won't even bother asking their friends to help when they are unavailable during the registration day.
This is, almost what everybody said after last year AN AA's lottery. Lottery with such long time frame only rewards lazy people who don't even bother asking for help.

I am ok with lottery IF the time frame is kept to 1 day. After that, everybody go on waiting list.

That's my 2 cents speaking from experience and the voices of a lot of people after the AN lottery last year.

[darkshardsyuki]

Motor, thank you for your input, while your post contradicted itself several times with how long registration should be, and how deciding what artists should be done, ect, I'm pretty sure I under stand what you meant. First off, the NDK Artists Alley sign up has been online at roughly the same time for the last several years and has been posted in the same section of the forum every year, most artists come to expect it around the same time of year.

Last year we had so many people sign up at the midnight rush (when it was used) that we filled both the Artists Alley and the waiting list within the first half an hour, I doubt leaving registration open for more then the 15 days it already is or making it one day will increase or decrease the number of applications we receive, many of the serious artists either check the forums for updates themselves or have friends that do. The NDK forums are a big part of the convention so a lot of information gets posted on them from different areas of the con at different times of the year.

[motor]

while your post contradicted itself several times with how long registration should be,

The first part was to use NDK's logic, which is different from what I personally think the lottery time frame should be (1 day). So I don't really see the contradiction, care to point that out for me please?

ince NDK isn't until September, using NDK AA's this year's logic, I think the registration time should be kept open as long as possible,

open for more then the 15 days it already is or making it one day will increases or decreases the number of applications we receive

Assuming this is directed to the point I said about the 1 day time frame, I did not mean to keep the time frame short because it decrease/increase applications,

I think lottery does work, if the time frame is actually shorter, say, 1 day. And for people who don't even bother checking the website once in a while, they have only themselves to blame for not getting the table.
When it's first come first served, or lottery time frame being only 1 day, I know that if I lost, I lost to serious people. Now when the lottery time frame being so long, if I lost, I will most likely be losing to some lazy people who won't even bother asking their friends to help when they are unavailable during the registration day.
This is, almost what everybody said after last year AN AA's lottery. Lottery with such long time frame only rewards lazy people who don't even bother asking for help.

[Terra]

First off, the NDK Artists Alley sign up has been online at roughly the same time for the last several years and has been posted in the same section of the forum every year, most artists come to expect it around the same time of year.

I doubt leaving registration open for more then the 15 days it already is or making it one day will increase or decrease the number of applications we receive, many of the serious artists either check the forums for updates themselves or have friends that do. The NDK forums are a big part of the convention so a lot of information gets posted on them from different areas of the con at different times of the year.

Yeah, if it fills up within an hour with the people who are serious about doing this, why leave it open for the people who couldn't be bothered to get around to it to get their app in two weeks later? I can understand not wanting to limit it to a 15-20 minutes time frame, but over two weeks seems to go the opposite.

For people that aren't regular forum goers or don't know that important information is often buried in the forum, I also agree that it's a penalize, however, for people that don't really care about NDK AA so much to the point that they don't even want to check the website's news section regularly, which doesn't even takes them that much time to do??? I am not sure if they really deserve the same opportunity as everybody else who, at least, check the NDK's front page news section regularly.

I think that summarizes better what I was trying to say.

Yuki, you yourself said...people know the information comes up at around the same time, and almost EVERY anime conventions now communicates with artist alley people through the forums, so this isn't exactly like some kinda...hidden trick only NDK does. It's par for the course. If they can't bother to check in now and then to the forums, or the website...why do they deserve a chance at a table any more or less then someone who say, just shows up at the con and hands you $50 and plops down. There are a lot of people who want these spots, and there is now no...sort of show of effort to get them.

I'm not a forum regular at most the cons I go to. I just know that AA stuff is posted in the forums and duck my head in every week or so to keep up to date. (And, if you wanna see a trick, I almost utterly missed Otakon, because you have to be registered to see ALL of their forums, but SOME show up if you're not registered, with no obvious note that you need to not just find but register on the forums to see Artist Alley.)

A note in the Artist Alley section of the website evens out the forums regulars vs. not, quite easily. (And the note about the complication was more on your end then mine. This does make it easier for ME, but seems far more complicated for y'all)

It's like making the hotel save rooms open for people who didn't bother to register beforehand, and want to get a room at the con. I don't think people should be forced to jump through multiple complicated hoops, but I also think simple things like "Check the website" shouldn't be something neutralized from the process. If someone isn't willing to check the website sometimes between September and February, they don't deserve the table. It seems a very arbitrary line to cross. Like Motor says, what about the unfairness to people who will not be in town? Or people who don't have an internet connection at all? You can't even make it 100% fair for everyone, and I'm sorry, I do think the fairness should fall on the side of the people who care the most. And I would think you guys would prefer people who care, and are putting effort into this, not people who just note that's up there and go "Sure, why not throw my name in and see what happens?"

(And that's no comment on quality of art/products. I don't think that should ever be judged, for a billion reasons, the biggest being taste. But there's a difference between someone who works hard and brings their A game because they love this, and someone who shows up with a binder full of doodles they ran off at their work's copier. And I can say from personal experience, if an AA is overly easy to get into, people will do it just to do it. Having to do a little work weeds out those that don't really care.)

And also....even with this lottery, as of today (the day before registration) people STILL would have to be digging through the forums. There's no announcement on the website, no way to know what's going on unless you're...on the forum. So the whole "Being on the forum" hasn't been cut out at all. And just...posting things to the artist alley section of the website instead of the forums (Which we don't even seem to have anymore, although I could ttly be overlooking it, all I can find is the art show) would get rid of that a lot easier. Or just posting a link to here, for people who don't know the info tends to go through the forums and not the website since they move faster.

(And, yes I would feel the same way about the rush if something happened that I couldn't do it. That's bad luck, not an unfair system. Personal luck=/=bad system. If I picked the wrong number at the lottery, I wouldn't blame it on the lottery having a bad system)

I think motor makes a good reference to the system that's part lottery, part first come first serve, as it allows for both. Some spots of luck for those that have a bad go at midnight, and some spots for those that are on top of things. And also the point about a shorter lottery time, someone who waits 2 weeks to get their butts in gear doesn't deserve the same chance as the kid who's been waiting patiently since last year to get a chance to get in.

I know this late in the game this is all set this year (Because it would be....much worse and more unfair to change the game plan now) but I hope you guys take all this in to consideration, and don't just blow it off. Yuki, I know you got caught in the fiasco of...what 3 years ago with me too, so I know you're just trying to make this run as smoothly and fairly as possible. I just don't want to see the people who are really into this, and work really hard to be there every year get snubbed simply because NDK is bigger now. I myself have the ability to travel to other cons if things don't work out (Although I'd hate not to be at NDK because this is home) but I know a lot of the people I interact with at NDK that want to try for this...don't have that ability.

[The Enigma]

...after all, the registration frame is only 15 days and people who are on vacation during that period, or people who don't check the website/forum monthly are still being "penzalized"

And I am able to say this, if an artist is serious about this, he does what he can to register, for example asking couple of friends to do it for them if they can not make it on that night.
If my internet died, I would still feel that it's fair and I would only blame my luck on it. I can say this because something like this has happened to me before, not being available the day registration open, and internet having problems during that moment.

As you yourself have pointed out, if someone is on vacation or is otherwise unable to personally submit an application during the two weeks, anyone who cares enough will ask friends to do it for him or make other arrangements. And having two weeks to do something about it is much better notice than suddenly realizing that your internet is broken at midnight and having to call a friend to see what they can do.
It's great that you would blame bad luck if your internet died at the moment when you needed to submit an app. Personally I feel that technology should be an asset, not a liability. I think that's one of the ideas behind giving people more time, so technology can work for us instead of, potentially, against us.

In that case is it possible to not set the registration time at midnight?

Changing the exact time won't change any of the problems that come with a first-come, first-serve program.

When it's first come first served, or lottery time frame being only 1 day, I know that if I lost, I lost to serious people. Now when the lottery time frame being so long, if I lost, I will most likely be losing to some lazy people who won't even bother asking their friends to help when they are unavailable during the registration day.
This is, almost what everybody said after last year AN AA's lottery. Lottery with such long time frame only rewards lazy people who don't even bother asking for help.

Let me see if I understand this. A "serious" artist is someone with fast internet who manages to submit an application at exactly the right time, due to serious forum stalking. Any other circumstance makes an artist "lazy." These non-serious artists include people who are very dedicated to their art but who can't get an application in at the exact time due to a power shortage or laggy internet, or people who have an important test the next morning (one can't be a serious student and a serious artist), or people who end up having to drive someone to the hospital that night, or even people whose friends go to bed early because of similar life situations, and who know it would be rude to call those friends at any time after midnight for favors, and that even if they did, no application could be submitted in time because a hundred other people are also submitting at midnight.
In short, I find your views of what makes a "serious" artist to be rather narrow.

I would think you guys would prefer people who care, and are putting effort into this, not people who just note that's up there and go "Sure, why not throw my name in and see what happens?"

Frankly, with a first-come, first-serve program, the exact same problem can and does occur of people slapping something up at the right time and saying, "Let's see what happens."

The bottom line is, there are very valid reasons why people "can't be bothered" to get their applications in until later, and it does not make them any less serious or less suitable for a position in the AA. As I understand it, extending the submission pool to two weeks is a courtesy to artists so they don't have to break themselves trying to get a table. Everybody knows artists suffer, but we shouldn't have to make them suffer.

[Terra]

When I am getting a table for something that I know goes fast, I mark the date off before hand, make sure I am at a place where I can reach reliable internet, AND have a back up friend just in case, who I'm ususally on the phone with so I can go "Crap, my computer just timed out, grab it!". AX tables went in 5 minutes the year before I went, and I knew this, so I was prepared (And because of their system, registration went up like...4 hours AFTER the time they said. So you didn't have to be ready at a certain time, you had to be ready to wait around all day hitting refresh over and over again for the page to come up. THAT is a sucky system, although I know it was all to make things flow smoother in years to come. It still made that day suck a lot.)

Most (and not all, of course, but most) people getting a table have a friend doing it with them, or someone else somewhere in their life they can rely on for something like this that they can give a heads up before hand. You're right, calling them right when your internet fails is probably gonna lose your spot, but if you plan this out before hand, most people don't mind staying up till midnight one night. And yeah, there's still a lot of competition, and that all sucks, that you may not be able to get a table, but again, that's life, not an unfair system. Most of those things have easy solution if you work around them Take a nap if you have an early test so your not tired, plan with a friend, etc. Not things that are unreasonable to expect. They have never asked us to go stand out in the rain for a week to wait for registration to open, or hit refresh for 3 hours straight or anything like that. The level of "devotion" required here is pretty minimal compared to most things in the world.

And with this system, you can be as serious as you want, and still not get anything because someone who popped by two weeks after you got your app in and decided to try this table thing out gets a place you could have put to use. Both involve luck, but one involves luck and effort. Most people who are just like "Hey, I'll try it~!" aren't gonna be up at midnight after finding the application on the forums and getting it in the exact right time. Some people, of course, flake out when they do get the table, or have something come up or the like before the con. But that's not exactly the same.

I don't seriously forum stalk myself. I mark the thread off here so I get e-mails from them, and most other cons, I just check in once a month or so until the dates are put up. Trust me, I'm a lazy butt. I just make sure I have my stuff together, which...really isn't that hard to do. Most cons don't tell you the date without giving you an advanced heads up, so "serious" forum stalking is not required, since most are not like "It's happening in an hour GO!" Unless, or course, you call 10-15 minutes a month a serious devotion to forum stalking. They let you know when it's happening so you HAVE time to work things out. Like I said, someone who isn't willing to devote 10 minutes a month (And a few hours on one specific day) to poke around and get some basic info...yeah, that's not a serious artist.

I understand trying to avoid the 15 minute sell out, like I said. I just think 2 weeks, and nothing to show if you are working for this is sorta...to far in the other direction. With a day to submit apps like Motor suggested, that would even give everyone with all excuses except "On vacation" a chance.

[Nogardous]

I think what they are doing is giving everyone a fair opportunity to get the application in with out worrying about a midnight deadline...I personally think this is more fair then what happened in the past. I have  to be at work at 5:30 am so staying up until midnight to get the app in would cause me to be tired for work.... also I know plunty of serious artist that yeah they are in school and are busy doing there school art work and personal art to keep track of what day something has to be in... Yesterday my friend asked what the date was and then realised the project he was stressing about wasn't due until midweek not monday... it helps with thoughs who do have a busy schedule...   

[Greg Hines]

Our goal with Artists Alley is to give artists a chance to show off and sell their artwork to NDK attendees.

Note that it doesn't say "serious artists." We don't subscribe to the notion that only "serious artists" (whatever that means) should be eligible for Artists Alley tables. Our goal is to give every artist a chance.

We also don't believe that being available during a specific 15-minute window one night a year means that someone is a "serious artist." Nor do we believe that not being available during such a window makes someone "lazy" or that it means they "can't be bothered." As has been stated several times before, there are numerous reasons why someone might not be available and we don't consider any of them to be valid reasons to exclude someone from being eligible for an Artists Alley table.

We've tried the first-come, first-served system. We know its merits and its drawbacks and we've dismissed it in favor of a lottery system. And we're not going back. Pleas to revert back to a first-come, first-served system will fall on deaf ears. Time will tell if the lottery system is the right system for us, but we already know that we're not going back to the first-come, first-served system again. No amount of arguing will change that.

And because you're not going to change our minds on this, I ask that you all please accept that this is how we're going to do things and move on. Continued arguing serves no purpose and only distracts from the purpose of this thread.

[Terra]

So if we have dissenting opinions, or ideas/advice on other things that may work for next year (Which Motor provided, and least my post clearly stated this was discussion for next year since this year is set in stone, as it should be by the point no matter which way things go), should another thread be opened, people PMed or is "Shut up and deal or get the thread closed." the only option?

I don't mean to come across as snarky, but this is the first year when having an opinion on things seems to be a negative, and I was always of the opinion that NDK was about community and the attendees to the extent that you can balance what the attendees want and what makes the con work. First come first serve doesn't work, ok, but that doesn't mean that it's the only option in the world, and there are lots of us here who often go to multiple cons, and might be able to brainstorm things other have not thought of. I'm not saying I have the right answer, but someone reading this might, and creating a hostile space to express opinions in...isn't going to encourage them to speak up. There was not an Artist Alley meet up after con like so many cons have, this was all dumped in our laps (And I do understand that was...not out of hostility, but out of things being changed around and wanting to get the ball moving), and many of us care a lot about this, so would like a place to discuss it on both sides. If here is not the appropriate place, I am 100% ok with that, but when and where would be? Is there going to be an AA panel after con next year to discuss how things worked? Can we open other threads, or have an outside of con meet up for the artist community as Yuki and I have done before? Or is it "If you don't like things, too bad."?

Also, large amounts of my post, at least, are being ignore or intentionally misread (or possibly accidentally misread) to be twisted around, and that's...super not cool. I am trying to be respectful while also disagreeing, mainly because I do respect the people in artist alley a lot, it's a wonderful place. (And, I'd like to point out the term "Serious Artist" was used by Yuki to explain that those looking to get into NDK's AA check the forums so 15 days vs. 1 day won't make a difference. There's seems to be some contradiction between her and yourself as to whom artist alley is looking to have.)

[Joel Berger]

The one issue I haven't seen addressed is the option of a one-day application window.  Unfortunately, it's still exclusionary.  I can think of plenty of cases beyond 'on vacation' which would shut someone out in that case, not least of them being hospitalization (or just being sick as a dog).

The counter-argument I've seen proposed is a situation in which a person needs all the prep time they can get (and I do understand that).  But even if in those two weeks you've built up a bunch of stock, there are still options to recover your investment:

• If you're able to travel, there are several other cons within a day's drive (and the only reason I don't mention ALW is because they're first-come, first-serve with only 20 tables and have had their AA registration open for at least a week -- odds are they're sold out).  Smaller, sure, but if you've just begun to prepare it's easy to scale back your production run.
• If you can't travel or can't make it to another con, we have an area right here in the forums (The Marketplace) where you're welcome and even encouraged to sell your creations.
• If you're going to any of the various non-sanctioned gatherings throughout the year, there's always a chance you can take a few items with you and sell them.

While I understand that none of these offers quite the number of potential customers that a table at NDK does, they at least should offer a chance to sell off inventory you might have built up while waiting for the word.

Moving to a more recent post, having an opinion has never been discouraged.  What we dislike is when we present the reasons, address your arguments (believe me, there's really no such thing as a knee-jerk "no" -- there is a thought process in every decision and it does involve thinking about a lot of those same things), and we basically get those arguments restated as though simply restating gives them more weight.  Dissenting opinions have helped to change a lot at NDK, but they have to be weighed along with dozens of other factors.  As to why we ask at some point to stop discussion on certain matters (in this case that the first-come first-serve system is not returning, which is the only part of the discussion Greg has asked to stop), it's mostly that we're human and don't want to argue the matter forever when it won't change anything.

Edit: I was going to say more on the opinion issue, but I don't want to stray too far from topic.  I'm not opposed to a constructive thread in the appropriate forum regarding how we handle opinions and suggestions.  The initiative is yours if your interested, just please keep it civil.

[Greg Hines]

So if we have dissenting opinions, or ideas/advice on other things that may work for next year (Which Motor provided, and least my post clearly stated this was discussion for next year since this year is set in stone, as it should be by the point no matter which way things go), should another thread be opened, people PMed or is "Shut up and deal or get the thread closed." the only option?

If you'd like to discuss alternate options for NDK 2011's Artists Alley, please create a new thread for that purpose. We're not changing things for NDK 2010 at this point, and this thread is for discussing NDK 2010's Artists Alley. That's why I'm asking that you please stop using this thread to argue for changes to the system.

I don't mean to come across as snarky, but this is the first year when having an opinion on things seems to be a negative, and I was always of the opinion that NDK was about community and the attendees to the extent that you can balance what the attendees want and what makes the con work.

We value our community and feedback from our community, but not all feedback is helpful. Because we've explained very clearly (and repeatedly) why we're not going back to a first-come, first-served system, pleas to return to that system are of little value to us at this point.

First come first serve doesn't work, ok, but that doesn't mean that it's the only option in the world, and there are lots of us here who often go to multiple cons, and might be able to brainstorm things other have not thought of.

But this is the only alternative being discussed, despite our repeated attempts to explain why it's not coming back. If you have other ideas, then we'd love to hear about them. In another thread.

I'm not saying I have the right answer, but someone reading this might, and creating a hostile space to express opinions in...isn't going to encourage them to speak up.

At this point, we're frustrated with the repeated pleas to return to a first-come, first-served system. We've tried to be as clear as possible about why we have no intention of returning to that system. And in reponse to those attempts, the same arguments in favor of a first-come, first-served system are rehashed over and over. So about the only response we have to that now is "it's not coming back, so please stop arguing about it."

There was not an Artist Alley meet up after con like so many cons have, this was all dumped in our laps (And I do understand that was...not out of hostility, but out of things being changed around and wanting to get the ball moving), and many of us care a lot about this, so would like a place to discuss it on both sides.

That's fine. Feel free to create a new thread if you want to discuss changes to the process for next year, but be aware that as far as we're concerned, reverting back to a first-come, first-served system (for any year) is a non-starter.

If here is not the appropriate place, I am 100% ok with that, but when and where would be?

A new thread.

Is there going to be an AA panel after con next year to discuss how things worked?

That's up to darkshardsyuki.

Can we open other threads

Yes.

or have an outside of con meet up for the artist community as Yuki and I have done before?

That's up to darkshardsyuki.

Or is it "If you don't like things, too bad."?

Only if all that's being offered is "let's go back to a first-come, first-served system." Aside from that, we welcome attendee input.

Also, large amounts of my post, at least, are being ignore or intentionally misread (or possibly accidentally misread) to be twisted around, and that's...super not cool.

I didn't really see any arguments in your previous post that differed greatly from the arguments you've made in your prior posts. More to the point, I was attempting to not respond to any specific point that any one person had made, but rather to address the situation as a whole. I still have no intention of addressing such arguments on a point-by-point basis because they ultimately boil down to a defense of the first-come, first-served system and that's something I'm done discussing.

I am trying to be respectful while also disagreeing, mainly because I do respect the people in artist alley a lot, it's a wonderful place.

We try to give people the opportunity to express their opinions on the forum, even if they run counter to our own. That's why we've given you and others ample opportunity to make your opinions known. But we've made it very clear that we're not going back to a first-come, first-served system and the discussion is going nowhere at this point.

(And, I'd like to point out the term "Serious Artist" was used by Yuki to explain that those looking to get into NDK's AA check the forums so 15 days vs. 1 day won't make a difference. There's seems to be some contradiction between her and yourself as to whom artist alley is looking to have.)

I don't believe that's the case. She was merely pointing out that the number of "serious artists" that submit applications likely wouldn't differ regardless of how long the submission window was. She wasn't implying that we're only seeking "serious artists." (I still don't understand the criteria for being a "serious" artist.)


And finally, let me say that Joel has it exactly right: NDK has always counted on feedback when it comes to making changes to the convention. We don't believe that "because that's how it's always been done" is a good reason for doing something a specific way. So when someone suggests a different way of doing something, we take it under advisement.

We weigh each suggestion carefully. We talk to the area head whose department it concerns. We discuss it amongst the board of directors (of which I'm a member), often at length. No suggestion is dismissed out of hand unless it's clearly infeasible or obviously runs counter to one of our policies.

So when we say we've considered a suggestion and dismissed it, it's not "because we don't like it." We put a lot of serious thought into it. Which means that when we've made a decision like moving away from a first-come, first-served system for applying for an Artists Alley table, we're not going to undo that decision just because a few people on the forum preferred it the old way--no matter how outspoken they may be.

[darkshardsyuki]

Sorry for delayed responce to everything, my computer died and my laptop didn't want to connect to the internet, I've been dealing with that all afternoon. Tecca thank you for your input, anything about after con meet ups and like that we can talk about closer to the convention.

As this is a new system and a big change from how things were, it is a work in process. Problems we have this year we can hopefully fix or change so that it works even better next year. I have set up a thread to hear ideas and such here: http://ndkdenver.org/forum/index.php/topic,4273.0.html so feel free to post your ideas there.

[Terra]

There was the one day option brought up, or a mix of both brought up. IMO, all questions about various things were not answered by your first post in reply to me (I feel they are now, or are to an extent that I know better how to respond), and you had not re-replied between then and these. If/when it's needed, I (or, IDK possibly someone else) will make another thread, but hopefully this'll actually work awesome and it won't be needed.

(And to illustrated being a serious artist: My first con was a bitty one where they were practically throwing AA tables at people and I showed up with copies....borrowed from the copier at work in a 3 ring binder copied out of my sketch book. I did it on a lark, a lark I learned a LOT from but would feel...highly guilty about if any serious artist had wanted into that AA and I bumped them to pretty much sit around and goof off. I was not serious about that. Now...I bring my A game. There are better artist then me, and WAY better craftsmen then me in AA, but I'm ready, I have things together, and I'm wanting to meet, and mingle, and share with people. I'd assume most the people in this arm of the forums agree with that. It's not about art quality or anything, but an attitude of wanting to be there and caring about it. IDK, it's about...like people have said, devotion, and priority and all that cheesy stuff that's really hard to put into words. Perhaps you have just not run into the un-seriouse variety, or it wouldn't be something that'd be confusing at all. It's that kid that got the last seat in art class so he could sit in the back and vandalize the desks, you know?)

In response to Joel:

I personally think that actually your guys timing is awesome. This is more then enough time with a lottery system to let people know whether they'll have a space or not, and give them ample time to make alternate plans or whatever if they do/don't get in.

[Osias]

If I was interested in an AA table; I would have sent an application in at 12:01 AM  

* runs off, before I get into trouble.

[darkshardsyuki]

Here is the link to the application, good luck to everyone, and please do not ask if you got a table until after the 15th, I will post it then. http://ndkdenver.org/activities/artists-alley/artists-alley-application